#archlinux32 | Logs for 2024-10-31

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[11:47:53] <void09_> btw, arch i586 pretty much dead ?
[11:52:21] <KillerWasp> void09_: for architecture support? you can use i686.
[11:52:37] <void09_> i686 works on pentium 1 ?
[11:53:08] <KillerWasp> yes. You also can try test from ISOs.
[11:54:01] <void09_> i thought i686 has instructions not supported by pentium 1
[11:55:15] <KillerWasp> you have i486, i686, and pentium4. I'm think that for i586 can work with the last two.
[11:56:29] <KillerWasp> oh, sure... Then i486 only?... Sorry by my error.
[11:57:31] <KillerWasp> I'm think in reverse order of versions. -.-U
[11:58:50] <void09_> Heh. Managed to get an i586 and i686 binary of the rqbit torrent thing. i686 doesn't work on voidlinux 686 with pentium 2 cpu for some reason, says "illegal instruction". i586 works there
[11:59:35] <void09_> i586 also doesn't work on i486 arch, same "illegal instruction"
[12:00:16] <KillerWasp> void09_: you can use i486 for i586. But keep in mind that you will not have all the packages available, since as I was seeing in this log, it seems that many updates in various packages, possibly several that belong to python modules, have already stopped supporting old architectures.
[12:01:06] <void09_> openSUSE-Tumbleweed-LegacyX86-DVD-i586-Current.iso this looks very updated, going to try it for i586
[12:01:44] <KillerWasp> void09_: its strange. You already check with 'uname -a'? Which package give illegal instructions?
[12:02:00] <void09_> my custom built package, rqbit :)
[12:02:04] <void09_> it's not in arch repos
[12:02:39] <KillerWasp> i see. You set specific arch for your package?
[12:03:22] <void09_> How do you even make a PKGBUILD for a package/arch that can't natively compile that package
[12:03:29] <void09_> like i486, there's no i486 rust binary
[12:03:34] <KillerWasp> also you need check all the features of your processor and check if all are fit with the set of instructions that are use in your package.
[12:04:41] <void09_> it compiles for i486 on x86_64, but i didn't know how to do the linking, it linked agains not compatible libs
[12:04:53] <void09_> so I used a cross compile tool that uses docker for this
[12:12:01] <void09_> i was just asking if there's any i586 arch forks around still alive, there were several in the past
[12:17:05] <KillerWasp> void09_: https://bbs.archlinux32.org
[12:17:06] <phrik> Title: Building packages from the AUR / Building / Arch Linux 32 Forum (at bbs.archlinux32.org)
[12:17:18] <KillerWasp> you can try this, only you must use i486.
[12:20:20] <KillerWasp> void09_: also you must use '-mcpu=genericnofeature'
[12:20:44] <KillerWasp> for CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS
[12:21:16] <KillerWasp> you dont need use CHOST, you dont use crosscompiling
[12:34:17] <KillerWasp> void09_: if still dont work, you can try any of those for arch=() parameter: "i586", "pentium", and even "native" where the compiler check all for you.
[12:34:37] <void09_> i was just curious about i486 pkgbuild with no i486 tool to compile
[12:34:51] <void09_> scenario in which an i486 binary can be built, but not on i486 itself
[12:35:22] <void09_> I wonder how many arch i486 users are there with real i486 hardware, except the devs :D
[12:35:38] <void09_> 2?
[12:36:40] <KillerWasp> void09_: uff! There are a lot of users who use i486 and older hardware! 😆
[12:37:10] <void09_> with arch 32 ?
[12:37:45] <KillerWasp> Multiply the number of users on this channel by 10,000, and you may still fall short.
[12:39:48] <KillerWasp> to today in 2024, even the games are building for c64, zx-spectrum, and other hardwares.
[12:40:13] <void09_> I still think it's 2 i486 hardware on arch32 users :P
[12:42:04] <void09_> "Rust's i686-unknown-linux-gnu target requires SSE2"
[12:42:16] <void09_> great, found why my binary doesn't run on pentium 2 lol
[12:42:51] <KillerWasp> Here in Argentina I can still see people using old machines, even in B&N. And they are not developers, they are ordinary people who use it for data entry like in any office or play something games for DOS in house.
[12:43:30] <void09_> I am not saying that, but they don't use archlinux i486, that was my point
[12:43:35] <KitsuWhooa> I really don't think you're getting rust running
[12:43:52] <KillerWasp> Every time I find them I am still surprised by something that is still used.
[12:43:58] <void09_> It's possible to restrict cpu features manually, I am going to try that
[12:44:08] <KitsuWhooa> Arch32's i686 rust target patches out sse2 fwiw
[12:44:12] <KitsuWhooa> It keeps sse though
[12:44:51] <KitsuWhooa> Really, the bare minimum usable is i686 and even that is super hard to keep alive
[12:45:10] <KillerWasp> well, you can try compiling rust also and see if can fit. :/
[12:45:48] <void09_> I am not tryint to get rust itself running, but a rust project
[12:46:11] <void09_> they're not a retro computing focused lang
[12:46:13] <void09_> like pascal
[12:46:56] <KitsuWhooa> That's what I meant :p
[12:48:36] <KillerWasp> perhaps most packages are no longer supporting older architectures. But don't worry, because one day AI will dominate the world and destroy humans, and in the process they will realize that the old architectures were the best and will modify all their source codes to support them again. 🙂
[12:49:00] <KitsuWhooa> Compiling rust for anything less than i686 with sse2 results in miscompilation at the very least iirc
[12:49:17] <KillerWasp> oh! and they never use Rust, because rust is SUCK!!!
[12:49:42] <KitsuWhooa> And what arch32 is doing for i686 is very much not officially supported
[12:52:11] <void09_> you not rust fans around here ? :)
[12:52:25] <KillerWasp> void09_: nope. hahaha!
[12:53:07] <void09_> I was thinking to pick it up for my future (serious) projects. And to hire rust devs. Cause it has some pretty good features compared to other static compiled langs
[12:53:08] <KitsuWhooa> I don't mind it
[12:53:19] <KitsuWhooa> but it makes my life a living hell trying to keep i686 alive
[12:53:22] <void09_> And there's very cool projects being built with it
[12:53:25] <void09_> :d
[12:53:52] <void09_> so rust compiled without sse2 is semi-defective to produce rust binaries?
[12:54:27] <KitsuWhooa> assuming one of the crates doesn't throw an assert not sse2, yes
[12:54:27] <void09_> "Compiling rust for anything less than i686 with sse2 results in miscompilation at the very least iirc"
[12:54:33] <KitsuWhooa> I'm trying to find the source for that
[12:54:42] <KitsuWhooa> https://github.com
[12:54:46] <phrik> Title: Tracking issue: 32bit x86 targets without SSE2 have unsound floating point behavior · Issue #114479 · rust-lang/rust · GitHub (at github.com)
[12:55:24] <KitsuWhooa> and also a whole bunch of stuff uses ring and it doesn't compile without sse2 unless you patch it https://github.com
[12:55:26] <phrik> Title: assert!(cfg!(target_feature = "sse") && cfg!(target_feature = "sse2")) panic at build on i386, i586, FreeBSD, or many target_os=none x86 targets. · Issue #1999 · briansmith/ring · GitHub (at github.com)
[12:55:43] <KitsuWhooa> and patching dependency crates is not easy unless you're willing to maintain a fork of it
[12:55:54] <KitsuWhooa> which on a distro which barely has 3 maintainers is not happening
[12:56:41] <KitsuWhooa> oh looks like they finally merged the patch from debian
[12:56:43] <KitsuWhooa> that's nice
[12:56:49] <KillerWasp> You can do anything you want to do in C and C++. Except when you run away crying with anything and jump to JS, Java, Rust, or Go, believing that everything is easy thanks to corporate brainwashing. Which is exactly what has been happening for years.
[12:57:43] <KitsuWhooa> uh
[12:57:45] <KitsuWhooa> I disagree
[12:57:54] <KillerWasp> Everyone forgets how to create simple functions that do the job and create better projects in C or C++, as it has always been done.
[12:58:03] <KitsuWhooa> no :p
[12:58:10] <KillerWasp> KitsuWhooa: ?
[12:58:46] <KitsuWhooa> what you're describing only happens in the js world
[12:59:46] <KitsuWhooa> anyway, this isn't a place for "language wars" or any of that silliness
[13:00:41] <KillerWasp> KitsuWhooa: I have already seen how a large handful of developers created a huge set of libraries for JS, and they even intend to create a 486 emulator or an operating system like Linux. It's crazy how they try to impose an entire world in JS. Although most of them just turn out to be bindings.
[13:01:46] <KillerWasp> well, i still dont understand why they do it, but do.
[13:03:44] <void09_> wish i could rm -rf all of js :P
[13:04:25] <KillerWasp> KitsuWhooa: and also happen with Rust, y maybe Go also? I have seen wild rumors that they want to replace the Linux kernel with Rust code, although I don't know if it is true.
[13:05:10] <void09_> could very well happen one day, one modulee at a time :P
[13:05:25] <void09_> maybe in 10-15 years
[13:06:24] <KillerWasp> Firefox for sure, it has been replaced with Rust, Go, and other strange languages that I don't know, gitlab the same. And more than half of the packages already use meson and ninja, although those are compilation tools that replace make and cmake.
[13:08:01] <KillerWasp> I keep all my negative opinions about these changes to myself, because later I don't want to be the one to clean the dirt in the channel. -_-
[13:11:57] <void09_> I just wish rust had a garbage collected mode. Otherwise it's a pretty solid lang.
[13:12:16] <KitsuWhooa> that's what go is for :p
[13:12:44] <void09_> go is annoying to read code, too verbose, not much sugar syntax
[13:13:12] <KitsuWhooa> funnily enough, the exact opposite is why I struggle to read rust
[13:13:20] <KitsuWhooa> (but I also don't do go, so)
[13:13:51] <void09_> I like nim, very aesthetic and easy to read lang, but it lacks ecosystem for serious stuff ;\
[13:14:20] <KitsuWhooa> I can't remember if it was nim or zig that I couldn't bootstrap on arch32
[13:14:27] <KitsuWhooa> I always mix those two up
[13:14:42] <KillerWasp> Right now and for a few months I have started some projects to destroy everything that is HTTP. Let everyone realize how stupid it is to run towards other languages when with C and C++ any code or project works. Far from being a flamewar, there is nothing better than practicing it to show how right I'm.
[13:15:21] <KitsuWhooa> as much as I love C, I don't think it's the future
[13:16:49] <void09_> lol, not even c++ is the future. Why do you think there's 50 projects trying to replace them
[13:19:17] <KillerWasp> KitsuWhooa: It always has a future, we talk about its usefulness. It could only die when people stop using it due to brainwashing, which is happening right now, when they stop using it because they believe things like it doesn't work anymore or because of garbage collection problems or any other strange idea. I find it unreasonable to abandon useful tools just because it's not a pretty Swiss army knife or something.
[13:20:55] <KillerWasp> Really, whether it is useful or not is no longer important. :/
[13:21:47] <KillerWasp> the change of languages is more by fashion.
[13:23:12] <KillerWasp> those who wear high heels are because they love Rust, and those who wear embroidery on their dresses are because they love JS.
[13:23:24] <KillerWasp> ok, i'm shut up.
[13:23:27] <KitsuWhooa> uhhhhh
[13:24:59] <KillerWasp> I better leave you thinking before you assume I'm crazy.
[13:25:22] <KitsuWhooa> that is either some phrase in another language that doesn't make it across, or it's meant to be insulting. And if it's the latter, please refrain from saying things like that
[13:27:16] <KillerWasp> KitsuWhooa: It was not insulting, and maybe it was misinterpreted, but hey, you have to be tolerant to read me and not be offended. 🙂
[13:27:55] <KillerWasp> it's how working the fashion, only it.
[13:29:37] <KillerWasp> how much of offtopic can be this channel?...
[13:32:04] <void09_> yes, we are disturbing all the on topic discussions :p
[13:33:11] <KillerWasp> void09_: 🙁
[13:37:49] <KillerWasp> void09_: if you still have problem with Rust and can't compiling it, then you can recompile the other packages for turn off the Rust language support.
[13:38:05] <void09_> huh ? :D
[13:38:39] <KillerWasp> i do same with python where i have problem of arch, seem much of them support only 64 bits.
[13:38:46] <void09_> like I said, don't want to compile rust, just one package written in rust
[13:39:11] <void09_> have two things left to do now, compile for i686 with sse2 disabled, and compile for i486
[13:39:19] <void09_> and test i586 working properly on i586 cpu
[13:39:24] <KitsuWhooa> i686 isn't going to run on a pentium 1 fwiw
[13:39:29] <void09_> i know
[13:39:30] <KitsuWhooa> it might boot, but sooner or later you're going to get sigill
[13:39:32] <KillerWasp> void09_: but you cant compile rust without rust compiler. :S
[13:39:32] <KitsuWhooa> alright
[13:39:38] <KitsuWhooa> gcc-rs? :p
[13:39:48] <void09_> i only have a p3 hardware wise, that's going to be my test once i get it going in qemu
[13:40:02] <void09_> then i might buy a 486 if it runs in qemu i486 :P
[13:40:05] <KitsuWhooa> yeah, that's going to be much easier
[13:40:20] <void09_> there's those fpgas emulating 486 100% accurately
[13:40:23] <void09_> used for retro gaming
[13:40:38] <KitsuWhooa> that'd be fun
[13:40:48] <void09_> so you can have 256mb ram etc
[13:40:49] <KitsuWhooa> I can't remember, is the x87 integrated or separate on a 486?
[13:41:08] <KillerWasp> void09_: maybe you can compile in vm and play in your real hardware
[13:41:10] <KillerWasp> 😛
[13:41:49] <void09_> of course, like i said, there's no i486 rust to natively compile it there ;d
[13:41:56] <void09_> even if it was, would take many days
[13:42:29] <KillerWasp> void09_: rust dont have options for compiling only in i486 or avoid all the features?
[13:43:29] <void09_> KillerWasp: there's no i486 official target, lowest is i586, but you can make a custom one. and then llvm should take care of respecting that target's specs
[13:43:40] <KitsuWhooa> "in theory" :p
[13:44:09] <void09_> I already made it, and it compiled, but i can't test it, cause at the linking stage, it needs to be linked to 32bit libs that i have no idea how to do, in an x86_64 system
[13:44:46] <void09_> waiting to get help from cross-rs project community, that uses docker containers for that. that's how i got i586 binary, and invalid i686 using sse2 :P
[13:45:33] <KitsuWhooa> wait, you weren't told "why would you want to do that? we only support sse2"? /j
[13:46:54] <void09_> it's a known "bug" in rust, that it considers i686 to be supporting sse2. sse2 exists on i686 , but not on all cpus
[13:47:03] <KillerWasp> void09_: you need install lib32 libraries, and include in the configurattion of pacman for use all the packages of 32 bits
[13:47:35] <void09_> I have no idea which ones are needed, I already had lib32-glibc :-?
[13:47:58] <KillerWasp> void09_: like you're use a archlinux in 64 bits, in #archlinux can help you much better. 🙂
[13:48:08] <KitsuWhooa> I really don't think they're going to help with building 32 bit binaries :p
[13:48:19] <void09_> yeah i haven't considered that, makes sense
[13:48:29] <void09_> get an i686 arch system running, and compile tehre
[13:48:49] <void09_> not sure if it's enough
[13:49:02] <KitsuWhooa> I mean, if you can get it to output i486 code it should work
[13:49:25] <KitsuWhooa> but don't you need to build rust to make a new target (or use rustup for an existing one)?
[13:49:29] <KitsuWhooa> and obviously rustup isn't going to work here
[13:50:56] <void09_> rust can cross compile itself, compiled 486 binary on x86_64, but it seems the linking part is bad in this environment
[13:51:42] <KillerWasp> void09_: https://wiki.archlinux.org
[13:51:43] <phrik> Title: Official repositories - ArchWiki (at wiki.archlinux.org)
[14:21:17] <KitsuWhooa> 09:40:12 <trotz> 2024/10/31 08:40 ?? buildmaster OS updates UNKNOWN - pacman -Sy failed with state 1
[14:21:26] <KitsuWhooa> I love it when things work
[14:26:29] <KitsuWhooa> as a sidenote, if rust can produce i486 executables, why can't it produce an i486 rustc
[14:27:16] <KitsuWhooa> (and the stdlib)
[14:27:36] <KitsuWhooa> would be nice to have working rust on i486
[14:34:25] <void09_> https://download.opensuse.org
[14:34:29] <phrik> Title: /ports/i586/tumbleweed/repo/oss/i586 - openSUSE Download (at download.opensuse.org)
[14:34:29] <void09_> rust1.82-1.82.0-1.1.i586.rpm
[14:34:34] <void09_> seems i586 is fine
[14:38:23] <void09_> although i hope opensuse does not misname their i586 as rust does i686 and maybe i586 too ;\
[14:46:34] <KitsuWhooa> I have no idea about suse
[14:46:45] <KitsuWhooa> also I celebrated too early
[14:46:58] <KitsuWhooa> that ring patch was merged in redox os' fork
[14:52:22] <void09_> who tried to compile i486 rust ?
[14:53:09] <KitsuWhooa> presumably abaumann
[14:53:14] <KitsuWhooa> many moons ago
[15:20:25] <void09_> well, installing opensuse i586 on qemu now, will see if rust works :)
[15:20:41] <void09_> if they could build it for i586, i am pretty sure it can be made to work on i486
[15:23:22] <void09_> 1: Given the declining usage of i586 devices, there have been discussions over whether or not to drop support for Tumbleweed i586 . While there is no concrete plan to drop i586 support now, do note this may change in the future. Also 32-bit Tumbleweed requires [i686 + SSE2].
[15:23:27] <void09_> wtf that doesnt make any sense
[15:23:39] <void09_> why would they call it i586 if it requires i686 lol
[15:44:27] <socksins1> because they don't want to rename it everytime they change the baseline, same reason debian calls it i386
[16:26:56] <void09_> well, it does run on pentium qemu cpu, so probably not i686
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[16:52:17] <void09_> installed rust package on i586 opensuse, qemu pentium, rustc gives "illegal instruction" :\
[17:12:30] <void09_> the i586 is a life
[17:12:35] <void09_> lie*
[17:38:29] <KillerWasp> KitsuWhooa: you love rust?
[17:40:16] <KillerWasp> void09_: why you don't try use 'gdb' and run it? if you can set the parameter for include the table of symbol debug is better
[17:40:29] <void09_> i'm not that smart KillerWasp
[17:40:45] <KillerWasp> i want see more specific which's the illegal instruction and in what line of rust
[17:41:34] <KillerWasp> void09_: but you can follow the instructions. 😛 ok, if you want.
[17:43:36] <KillerWasp> also, more info can help better for anyone that know more about of rust.
[17:46:13] <KillerWasp> void09_: talk to me if you want run gdb.
[17:46:21] <void09_> I don't :P
[17:46:53] <void09_> all i want is to compile rqbit to i686, sse, not sse2, and test it
[17:47:30] <KillerWasp> ok. 🙂
[17:50:16] <KillerWasp> and you mean in i586. I dont know if can run 64 bits system, but seem very old for it..
[17:52:01] <KillerWasp> you can check with 'lscpu', show all of your cpu.
[18:06:05] <void09_> well, seems like voidlinux and opensuse are pretty useless distros
[18:06:37] <void09_> xbps-install, what a stupid name for the package manageer
[18:10:43] <void09_> hey, latest i686 iso, launching archinstall doesnt work
[18:11:00] <void09_> no module archinstall.lib
[18:28:30] <void09_> "
[18:28:30] <void09_> Maybe I should remove archinstall from the ISO. It should be considered not working.
[18:28:30] <void09_> "
[21:08:49] <void09_> anyone know what's up with the archinstall on i686 ?
[21:23:51] <void09_> https://archlinux32.org wtf how did i miss it
[21:23:53] <phrik> Title: Arch Linux 32 - Package Search (at archlinux32.org)
[21:25:12] <KitsuWhooa> wait, why is it no on pentium4
[21:25:16] <KitsuWhooa> *not on
[21:26:02] <void09_> no idea, also it's an older version
[21:26:29] <KitsuWhooa> it probably last built before something broke again
[21:27:09] <KitsuWhooa> https://buildmaster.archlinux32.org
[21:27:11] <KitsuWhooa> oh come on
[21:27:54] <void09_> :D
[21:28:09] <void09_> i was just trying to compile it now on i686 arch vm, for i486
[21:28:31] <void09_> got stuck at some "rollup" js thing that apparently doesn't do linux + ia32: https://github.com
[21:28:32] <phrik> Title: Support for 32-bit Linux (x86/ia32) · Issue #5392 · rollup/rollup · GitHub (at github.com)
[21:28:45] <KitsuWhooa> js is notorious for being fucky
[21:29:03] <void09_> I wonder if that js part could be "copied" from a 64build and still work :-?
[21:29:06] <KitsuWhooa> if it's prebuilt in an -any package, you can yoink it from upstream arch
[21:29:08] <KitsuWhooa> yeah :p
[21:30:04] <void09_> there's no rollup arch packages, and i am pretty clueless about js stuff
[21:30:24] <KitsuWhooa> https://archlinux32.org
[21:30:47] <KitsuWhooa> anything you see in red to the left is the reason it's not being built :p
[21:31:48] <KitsuWhooa> 🤔 I wonder if we can output these graphs as svgs
[21:32:01] <void09_> rqbit being a single binary, i think all that js stuff gets bundeld in it somehow
[21:32:07] <KitsuWhooa> ugh
[21:32:09] <void09_> bundled*
[21:32:13] <KitsuWhooa> why not /usr/share
[21:32:23] <void09_> rollup is an "ES bundler"
[21:32:32] <KitsuWhooa> you don't need it, right?
[21:32:38] <KitsuWhooa> I suspect you can stub it
[21:32:39] <void09_> it's for the web ui
[21:32:58] <void09_> i'd be happy to find how to disable it in the build for the time being, api is enough
[21:33:14] <KitsuWhooa> check crate features perhaps
[21:44:16] <KillerWasp> KitsuWhooa: ok, at least you hate js, maybe we can be friends.
[21:57:12] <KitsuWhooa> hate is a really strong word
[22:11:15] <void09_> haha :D
[22:11:19] <void09_> finally 486 build done
[22:11:36] <void09_> I'll have to see about that nodejs webui thing
[22:39:31] <void09_> ohboy. anyone got a 486 with arch and 64MB ram ? :D
[22:39:45] <void09_> only 46 MB ram used while downloading torrent, for whole system
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